Hashtags do not replace groups.
No one moderates them. They’re easy to hijack and spam. And there’s simply no permanence to them.
Which is why, if you actually want to discuss something, it’s better to tag a group. For example, if you want to be part of an actual PC gaming community on the Fediverse, it’s better to tag @pcgaming@lemmy.ca than #pcgaming.
This needs to be common knowledge because people new to the Fediverse do not know about groups. Hell, I’d say people who have had Mastodon accounts for years still don’t know. And that’s a shame.
@fediverse@lemmy.world
@atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org I think mastodon should implement a post-to-community type thing like mbin has for microblog posts. It (and all other fedi. platforms, really) also needs like a tutorial or smth to show how to actually use the federation features of the platform.
@unknown1234_5@kbin.earth @pcgaming@lemmy.ca @fediverse@lemmy.world Already on the road map.
How does it show up in Lemmy if someone on Mastodon tags a Lemmy instance? Just curious.
it’s a new post in the community
So if there’s 50,000 users in a conversation and they all keep “tagging” the community instead of a hashtag, then that community would have thousands of new posts?
Yes
Yikes
I really hope there’s better handling of Mastodon user comments on Lemmy, because all the comments tagging other users are an absolute mess. Are Mastodon users doing this on purpose or is their client tagging the users automatically?
If this were to become more common I’d probably just think about find out a way to block Mastodon users so I don’t see their comments.
Communities are for Lemmy and hashtags are for Mastodon.
They each make sense in their proper context.
What if I told you that you can use Lemmy with Mastodon right now—and that many people do?
I have heard of the opposite. Mastodon users can see and comment on lemmy posts, but i have yet to discover how to view mastodon post from lemmy.
If it is indeed possible can you or anyone elaborate how to?
The mastadon user posting the thing needs to tag the Lemmy community in their post and then it will show up like any other post on Lemmy. You wouldn’t even know it’s from Mastodon unless they said so in the post.
You can usually tell it’s from Mastodon because it’s got a couple dozen hashtags scattered throughout the post and a dozen more users and communities tagged.
You have misread their comment and understood it backwards. AP’s saying people on Mastodon are engaging in Lemmy discussions.
There is no way to follow Mastodon users from Lemmy. Lemmy simply does not work that way.
Hrmmm… at a (strong) guess, PieFed does. You can follow anything, like a community, post, comment (even ones you do not own), or a user account. You would get Notifications triggered every time they post something, I believe. Including comments as well as posts, but again just a guess.
It’s a great way to follow a low-volume something or other! At higher volumes… it can get a bit much, but at least the tools are available, and you can always wipe all Notifications at once if need be.
The post you’re commenting on was made on a selfhosted instance of akkoma.social, so federation across softwares definitely works.
No one said you can’t. They said they make sense in their own contexts. The interface is different. Plus I don’t need my inbox blown up with notifications from a dozen Mastodon users tagging me unnecessarily.
No, what was said was that “Groups are for Lemmy and hashtags are for Mastodon”.
That is to say that Groups are not for Mastodon, so Mastodon users should be content with hashtags.
But Mastodon users use Lemmy groups from Mastodon, and better group integration is already being planned by Mastodon themselves.
Ergo, groups are for Mastodon.
No, what was said was that “Groups are Lemmy and hashtags are for Mastodon”.
…no what? You didn’t contradict what I said. There was no “can’t” in that statement.
You’re not the first to suggest it, but I still haven’t seen anyone do more than linking one from the other. This feels as inconsequential as posting a Twitter screenshot on Reddit. Is there a deeper integration possible?
@deegeese @atomicpoet I answer threads on (one) Lemmy community regularly from my Mastodon account. It’s weird but it works and frankly, it’s cool!
I saw this discussion on Lemmy, searched for it with my Mastodon client and, wow, it works! (I guess, we’ll see after I hit SEND)
I guess it’s cool that you can if you want, but if I’m searching Mastodon I want content on Mastodon, not Lemmy and vice versa.
I still don’t see the point.
@deegeese @atomicpoet hi, this thread literally popped into my mastodon timeline. Only noticed this is not originally from mastodon because you mentioned it and because you don’t mention on replies by default. Hope it works as an answer for deeper integration
Could you please explain how a Lemmy thread is showing up in Mastodon? I use it too but never see Lemmy there.
You could subscribe to the Lemmy community by following e.g. @fediverse@lemmy.world from mastodon. If you’re familiar with https://a.gup.pe/ , it’s exactly the same from mastodon. The difference is that with lemmy you can also access without passing through mastodon.
Is deeper integration possible? Sure, check out how I use !lumoura@piefed.social with my Akkoma account.
Can you be more specific? I don’t see anything.
Sure, here’s the URL:
https://piefed.social/c/lumoura
Also, you might want to look at getting a better Lemmy client.
Isn’t that just a Piefed photo stream?
I still don’t see any cross-app integration except simple linking.
Nope, not a Piefed photo stream. All those photos (so far) originate either from Akkoma or Pixelfed.
It looks “just” like a Piefed photo stream because I’m sending photos there. 😊
Someone on Mastadon could reply to a comment here directly from there and you may not notice unless you look at their instance.
Usually, you notice it, as Mastodon automatically adds an @username@instance for everybody the commment replies to, Lemmy doesn’t.
True, good point
@atomicpoet I had found this in the beginning, used it for a few days and unfollowed everything in frustration. At least in Mastodon it is way, way too spammy as you get every single reply. I don’t really get why you would want this, hashtags make more sense for the microblogging idea to me and once I knew you could follow them instead things got a lot better for me here.
@atomicpoet @fediverse Wait… is *that* how it works to follow a lemmy … whatever the equivalent is of a subreddit … group? anyway, you just follow @groupname@instancename? How did I not understand this before?
This is what I see from Lemmy.world
@LibertyForward1 @fediverse Not only can you follow, you can post to a Lemmy community from Mastodon by mentioning the Lemmy community. In fact, you just mentioned a Lemmy community, so your using Lemmy right now—but from you’re perspective, it looks like Mastodon.
@atomicpoet @fediverse trippy
Hello from Lemmy, I can see you. Can you see me?
New lemmy’s instance here. Hello.
I come on your topic to test. Might as well enjoy of your topic.
The tricky part is, the group-supporting fediverse software and the microblogging software need to improve how they interact for this to be as good as it could be.
Right now Mastodon barely supports group users/actors/accounts, however they’re called, translating stuff from Lemmy’s format in a rather clunky way. Meanwhile Lemmy also has to roughly translate Mastodon’s format to its own, working pretty well all things considering, but leaving clear artifacts (subject line/first line repeating, community mention remaining shown, etc.).
sharkey seems to have good lemmy support
@ElectroVagrant@lemmy.world With time, that stuff will be ironed out. Group support is in Mastodon’s road map. Now Mastodon develops very slowly, so take that with a grain of salt. But the point is that groups are coming to Mastodon… eventually.
I’m all for it as long as people know that posting on something like mastodon and tagging a lemmy community will then make a post in that community. Could make for great discussions, but could also lead to a lot of posts/spam in the communities.
@BenDoubleU@lemmy.radio But again, a big reason I recommend groups over hashtags is because you can remove spam from a group, whereas with a hashtag, you cannot.
So… will that increase spam? Not if moderators actually do their jobs.
As an instance owner and moderator: that’s a horrible way to look at things. Just throwing the onus onto someone else is irresponsible.
I’m an instance owner too (see atomicpoet.org and akkomane.social). Speaking as an instance owner, it’s our fundamental job to moderate.
It’s not “throwing the onus onto someone else.” The onus has always been on us.@atomicpoet @BenDoubleU I feel it’s worth pointing out in this context that from the perspective of a Masto server, this thread features several accounts with no avi, bio, follows or followers. I assume they’re the Lemmy accounts?
As a Twitter vet I’ve developed an aversion to engaging *at all* with newly-created accounts lacking properly fleshed-out profiles!
But it’s still cool there’s these options. Perhaps the integration will improve?
Having a Mastodon account means creating new habits. One of them is to check the originating server of an account. This is because that account may not be using Mastodon.
@ApostateEnglishman But you’re not a Twitter user anymore, so maybe it’s time to let that go. You’re part of something much bigger than Twitter-style micro-blogging. Lemmy users will usually have profiles (bios) – although not typically as extensive as Mastodon users – but following users or being followed doesn’t make any sense on Lemmy. The primary unit is the community (group) not the user.
@breakfastmtn Thanks. So far I’ve tried Friendica, Misskey and Hubzilla, as well as three different Mastodon servers. So I do understand that Masto is not the whole fedi.
It’s just that so far as I was concerned, “Lemmy” is a dead rock star who had a penchant for Nazi memorabilia.
I’d never heard of it as a fedi service until Chris’ post, yesterday! 🤷♂️
@ApostateEnglishman You should check it out. Lemmy’s great! Interoperability is terrific but I think the way information and discussion are displayed in Lemmy* is superior for deeper dives and being “in” a discussion. Not at all a knock on Mastodon, which is perfect for what it is. They’re just trying to be different things that have different strengths 😀
- PieFed and mbin too, the other “threadiverse” projects
@atomicpoet
Also it whould be neat to somehow see from the handle itself if it’s a group or not. It’s the case with the classic å.gup.pe, but I can’t derive that from lemmy.ca without having to look it up.I also find it father difficult to find groups, because the default ActivityPub-Search doesn’t work that way and groups are just special users.
That’s why I like a.gup.pe, it sounds a bit like Gruppe in german. Which doesn’t help internationally, something like gro.up oder a subdomain including group whould be helpful and make the seqrch for groups easier, because then it’s part of the name.@alsternerd @atomicpoet @fediverse @crossgolf_rebel would be nice if the !group@domain.com reference becomes an ActivityPub standard
@mapto @atomicpoet @fediverse @crossgolf_rebel This could help a lot, yes. :D
@alsternerd@social.alster.space @mapto@masto.bg @atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org @fediverse@lemmy.world
I think this is also more of a comprehension problem in the Fediverse or the mastodons that are closing themselves off
If you always think a little outside the box, then #lemmy is already a term.
That’s what happens when you shorten communication about the Fediverse to ‘mastodon only’, it excludes so much that would help@crossgolf_rebel @atomicpoet @fediverse @mapto For me Lemmy is just Reddit build on top of activitypub and just feels like that, while using it with Thunder on Android or even the webinterface given.
@alsternerd@social.alster.space It’s also a question of how you use and deploy it yourself
@atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org @fediverse@lemmy.world @mapto@masto.bg
@atomicpoet @fediverse TBH I think a lot of people (including me) have a very sketchy idea of how the different bits of the Fediverse link together… I’m still a bit vague about how my #Mastodon and #Pixelfed accounts could work better together.
There’s a lot of *assumed knowledge* about the #Fediverse … and people don’t want to ask ‘stupid’ questions because they don’t want to ‘look stupid’. There needs to be easily accessible and explicit step by step instructions *to get people started*.
Where could I find a group about #ux or #humancentredesign for example? Or #photography ?
@Coolmccool@mastodon.au @fediverse@lemmy.world The best way to explain #Pixelfed is that it’s an Instagram-like front-end for the Fediverse. But practically speaking, it’s Mastodon if pictures were a requirement on Mastodon. You interact with a Pixelfed account from Mastodon in much the same way you interact with another Mastodon account, or how you’re interacting with my Akkoma account right now. It really is just like email.
Regarding group topics, the best way to find them is to do a search on a place like lemmy.world or lemmy.ca. For example,
uiux@programming.devis one. And you can find the URL here:@atomicpoet @fediverse @Coolmccool I think you’re missing the point - it’s not “what is PF/Masto/whatever”, it’s “how do they relate to each other, exactly, in a way I can understand & benefit from?” I’ve been in fedi for a few years & have, in fact, been asking the stupid questions, but I still don’t quite understand either…
@jwcph @fediverse @Coolmccool The best way to understand the Fediverse is not as a collection of servers but instead as actors that implement activities.
You are an actor. A Lemmy community is an actor. A bot is an actor. An app is an actor.
All these things do certain activities. One activity is to like a post. Another activity is to repost.
And all these apps like Mastodon are just presenting these actors/activities in a certain format.
Hope that explains things.
@atomicpoet @fediverse @Coolmccool It doesn’t, not even close. It’s way too abstract, even for me - I absoutely guarantee you, nobody looking for an alternative to keeping up with friends on Insta or Facebook will be able to connect what you just said to that need / desire, let alone make a decision based on it.
@jwcph @fediverse @Coolmccool No, those concepts aren’t for everyday users. It’s for developers. For the same reason a homeowner doesn’t need to know the ins and out of architecture, an everyday user does not need to know about the architecture of the Fediverse.
Nevertheless, it’s how ActivityPub works—and I will go more in depth in a future thread for those who want to know.
@atomicpoet @fediverse @Coolmccool That’s what I mean - I think you’re missing the point. I don’t think anyone is expecting every developer to also be able to explain the usefulness of the fediverse to casual users, but some of us do feel, I think, that there’s a lack of fundamental recognition that developer explanations are beside the point as far as most regular people are concerned, which can cause the unwelcoming impression for non-devs that we hear people talk about fairly regularly.
@jwcph@helvede.net @fediverse@lemmy.world @Coolmccool@mastodon.au To be blunt, “it’s like email” is probably good enough for 95% of casual users in terms of an explanation for how the Fediverse works.
It’s all just email. Mastodon, Pixelfed, and Lemmy are really all just email.
But the moment you ask, “Well, actually, how does it all work? How is it possible to use Lemmy with Mastodon?”
The answer is: actors.
And maybe that is abstract, but I assure you that’s the practical reason you’re able to do it. Once you understand that the Fediverse is made up of actors/activities, a whole new world of possibilities opens up—even for regular users. It’s why you’re participating on Lemmy right now, even though it still looks like “Mastodon” to you.
Now I’m sorry that you may perceive this as “beside the point,” but people ask how it works and I’m telling you. However, if this is too abstract, remember: it’s all “email”.
I have literally zero interest in cross pollination between social media types.
They each have their own interfaces that work best for their communities and content types. You’re always missing something trying to access one from another.If you have zero interest in the fundamental architecture of the fediverse, why are you in this community? You’re probably interacting with “cross pollination” way more than you realize.
I follow topics and have discussions on Lemmy, keep up with individuals and announcements on Mastodon, and look at cool photos on Pixelfed.
None of my accounts are following anything on other systems.The reason I’m in this community is for discussions like this. We disagree on the nature of using he fundamental architecture of the Fediverse.
I think using Mastodon to engage in Lemmy discussions is extremely awkward without the threading to keep it all organized. Equally, Lemmy is designed specifically around following communities. Following individuals on Mastodon breaks the pattern of the feed. And good luck following either Mastodon accounts or Lemmy groups in Pixelfed.However, having multiple decentralized servers within each system, is plenty of reason for the Fediverse to be better than a centralized platform. They don’t Need to interoperate with each other.
@Steve @shnizmuffin I follow one Lemmy community through my Mastodon account because it is mainly a casual chatty daily thread group. It +is+ weird, and not ideal as it doesn’t show images for some reason, but I still kindof like that way of reading. I’ve got a separate Lemmy account for a bunch of Lemmy communities, and that works better generally. But I do like that they interoperate to some degree.
I also follow a bunch of hashtags and like them too. I find it all brilliant tbh, and love that it exists and isn’t controlled by fucking billionaires.
That sounds good.
I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be able to interoperate at all. Just that this kind of thing isn’t, and never will be ideal. I’m pushing back on the idea, that one account for all the Fediverse is the best and greatest, that everyone should be striving for that goal.It’s a principal of reality. Trying to make something that can do everything, will mean it’s not great at anything. Specialization is what allows society to grow to what it is. The Fediverse is no different.
For real. He replied to my Akkoma post, which tagged this Lemmy group. 😆
Which I would never respond to on Mastodon, as it’s terrible for discussions.
Mastodon is terrible for topical discussions because people don’t use groups. But they can if they knew how to use them.
You may say the system was not designed for cross-pollination, but the fundamental system is not Mastodon, and it’s not Lemmy: it’s ActivityPub.
Now do all these apps implement ActivityPub imperfectly? Yes. But eventually, some app will get it right—ideally one that will let you choose your preferred UI/UX on the fly.
That would be cool. Might be useful. Not sure it’s really possible.
Not only is it possible, there’s lots of Fediverse software that’s just designed to be a “dumb server” akin to Nginx. For example, appy:
Now the reason this stuff hasn’t caught fire yet is because we’re just now moving away from “Fediverse = Mastodon”. So the idea of federation itself isn’t just a paradigm shift, it’s a complete system shock that disrupts our mental models for how social media is supposed to work.
@atomicpoet @fediverse
Tag spammers get muted.@m3t00 @fediverse Give me more context and what you specifically mean.
@atomicpoet @fediverse
Go to their account profile and mute them. Block w/e@m3t00@mstdn.party @fediverse@lemmy.world Are you talking about hashtags or groups?
+1, I absolutely loathe the twitter model of discussion because it’s a huge mess of out of order replies and random spam. Individual discussion posts with tree threaded comments are way, way, way more effective at keeping discussion relevant and directed. Also +1 re: moderation, social media functions best with effective, vigorous, moderation and the twitter model just sucks there.
