Alrighty, then! If you say so

continues enjoying keyboard and mouse games on Steam Deck like most users, as Valve intended

Makes invalid comparisons based on incompatible measures and draws incorrect conclusions

You’re still wrong.

😂

Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That’s not on Deck, that’s across all of Steam.

So a completely different measure than what is used for ranking Great on Steam Deck games…? 🤦 Comparison to concurrent users just isn’t valid because Great on Steam Deck ranking aren’t measured by concurrent users…

it’s that mouse-first games are quite unpopular

Evidence needed. Also, did you purposely leave out the fact that Civ VII is literally #2 trending on the Deck right now because it proves you argument wrong or…?

I don’t mind being wrong that much

That’s certainly convenient for you lol

I mean… for any game in the top 500 on Steam Deck… That sure would be one hell of a birthday party. You must have no concept of how big of a number 4 million is and how many people are playing these games on Deck…

Do you just not know what a radial menu is? The grid layout fits as many things as you configure it to, and the layout and arrangement of squares are fully configurable, which can be more useful and contextual than a radial menu… you should really watch that video I linked above, especially if you have time to spend counting games in the steam list lmao

a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu

Area scales faster than perimeter/circumference. You are literally, mathematically, incorrect. 36 buttons in a grid would still be readable and usable, with only 6 buttons per row, while 36 slices of a circle would be an unreadable squished mess with 9 items in each quadrant… That radial menu would likely need to be the size of the screen

And for the record, its not really a surprise or supportive of your argument that controller-first games are more popular, given that the Steam Deck also works great for controller-first games… like… duh?? That doesn’t prove the point you think it does

Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups.

Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can’t rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.

Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad.

I agree 100%

Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that’s about it

You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao

what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller?

Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch

“don’t force games that aren’t fun on a controller to be on a controller”

except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn’t some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features

I mean that’s basically like saying “Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???” lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads due to their quality and advanced haptics, and these games are 100% playable on Deck and TV because of them…

And further, in the same messages you accept “using a single touchpad”, so like… you agree with me… great. And to satisfy your “dual touchpad” requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much any other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn’t totally suck when it is a radial menu. The virtual menu use is pretty much the only reason I use the left touchpad, and yet its so useful for making these types of games playable that it justifies its place on the Steam Deck.

Your argument, once again, amounts to: “Stop having fun!!”

What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn’t have any other way to do the same?

Umm… literally any RTS or management game… left click… right click… dragging entities around… multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen… Good luck with the right stick for that, I’m sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right? 🙄 Lmao.

Where do ou need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that?

Umm… literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls…

You wanted the name of a game, sure: Rimworld.

The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small

Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???

Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦

play something else?

Lmaoo yep, that’s what I thought.

I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.

What point are you making by quoting this…? Like… I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.

“Hey, here’s a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk”

Compared to… what is the better way, exactly? It’s actually: “Hey, here’s a way to play a few (‘few’ 🙄 sure) of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn’t have done before with a controller”. Or is your answer “Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!” lmfao

… well, there’s a touchscreen right there.

Do you have three hands…? How are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you “let that one pass” for a reason 😉 (it doesn’t make any sense and isn’t relevant to the discussion). Are you genuinely proposing that “touchpads are bad and hard to use” but “the touch screen is a viable way to play mouse-based games”??

for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.

Lmao boy, you are not going to like the Steam Deck 2 when it comes out. Guarantee that touchpads will continue to be first class citizens

No, friend, the argument you’re making is that Valve didn’t sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.

What??? No, reading comprehension (probably a good idea to understand the argument the other person is making before engaging with them). As I’ve stated over and over, the Steam Controller is good for playing non-controller games on the couch. Here, literally the first marketing paragraph from the literal Steam website…

Wow, gee… the exact point I’ve made over and over…

Its not a great mouse replacement

This means that I’m not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren’t still great for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it “solves the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively”, but yeah it isn’t better than a mouse. The Steam Controller has not replaced using a mouse.

Arguing against a point that actually isn’t the argument the other person is making is the definition of strawman. I am not arguing that the touchpads are good for replacing sticks. Making the point that touchpads are bad at replacing sticks over and over again is a textbook example of a strawman. I agree with you on it, it is irrelevant, it doesn’t score you any points against what I am actually saying.

So if it’s not a great standard controller replacement and it’s not a great mouse replacement

Correct, yes, we all agree here.

what is it for?

Playing non-controller games from the couch or in a handheld form factor. Lmfao

It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively

This is where we disagree and what you have not actually made any points on that support your opinion that touchpads do not solve this effectively, besides it hurts your thumbs, which is a you thing, really

games designed for an Xbox or PlayStation pad will still play better with the native hardware

it’s difficult for the dual-trackpads to replace the trusty thumbstick, especially when it comes to aiming in first-person shooters

you literally just cherry-picked the same “stick replacement” talking point that I’ve already identified as a strawman and irrelevant to this discussion 🤦 Dude, no one is saying that the touchpads are a stick replacement or that the Steam Controller is better for playing controller-first console games. That’s literally why there are 2 analog sticks on the Steam Deck… and why I use them for controller-first games… and why Steam Controller isn’t my favorite or even what I would recommend for controller-first games… If someone at Valve said that once, then they’re wrong. The analog sticks being better for controller games doesn’t change the fact that not having touchpads entirely limits the usability of the device for non-controller games.

If all you play are console games and first-person shooters, 1) that’s totally fine, 2) yeah, you probably don’t get much if any use out of the touchpads. Those aren’t the only games that I play on Steam Deck or while docked to TV, though, and the touchpads on the Steam Deck and Steam Controller allow me to to play these other types of games that would not be possible to play effectively with a typical controller. If the Steam Deck only came with touchpads and no sticks, then we would be limited in the other direction. It has both, but other devices marketed as Steam Deck challengers do not have both.

it ultimately fails at replicating the speed and precision of a mouse for gaming

Obviously… lol, its not like the intention was ever to be using the Steam Controller at a desk while gaming on a desktop instead of using the mouse… but I’m not going to use a traditional mouse when sitting on my couch. Still irrelevant

Memory and thumbs, two conversations that you need to have with a doctor lol. You can literally just look at Steam Controller reviews and reception, these webpages all still exist on the internet… Basically the only thing that it is dinged on in reviews is the plastic build quality (totally valid, the plastic does feel cheap), lack of compatibility with Mac, and need for input mapping. The worst that I have ever seen said about the touchpads on it is “it takes getting used to” for games that are controller-first, while for non-controller games they are completely intuitive and just work.

Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them, the product is lacking to the point of being unusable for these types of games. Continuing to try to make points about stick replacement is a deflection and a strawman, honestly.

it was a massive success that is not being made anyway because… I don’t know, because they’re special and unique

We’re talking about Valve, this is basically their MO. Same could be said about their games… Half-Life, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress: “massive success that is not being made anyway because… I don’t know, because they’re special and unique” yup. The only thing that is weird about Steam Controller stopping production is they didn’t stop after 2.

The OG Steam controller was a bust in general

Lol on planet earth? It sold over 1 million units in a couple months, and is so beloved and sought after that they go for over $150 in box on secondhand markets still today… Is it my favorite controller for playing games that are designed for controller? No, of course not, but that’s not what it is for… For playing non-controller games from the couch while docked to the TV, though? Absolutely indispensable, there is nothing else that exists that comes close to the success of the Steam Controller.

despite insisting on keeping the dual trackpads

Valve has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the standard layout

I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol. The point of the device is to allow play of all games, and the sticks obviously play a role in that for games that were designed to be played with them. There’s never been any dragging or kicking or screaming.

Obviously there are many factors that contribute to the success of the Steam Deck: price, hardware performance, input features, Steam OS usability, compatibility with the vast majority of Steam libraries, etc. My point is that the touchpads are a discriminator between a handheld PC and a handheld console, a subtle but real difference. Comparing the Steam Deck to handheld consoles, it is not even close to the same sales of these devices like Nintendo Switch. But it doesn’t matter, it is still hailed as a major success, because it isn’t a handheld console.

any time Valve has tried to have them as a primary input they had to either reintroduce sticks alongside them or swap them out for sticks altogether

Such as…? Or are you just referring to the original Steam Controller teaser concept, compared to the final product that has a left stick in addition to the 2 touchpads (which is objectively a better design, and I appreciate that the left stick was included).

In most cases if it’s not intended to be used with a controller I’d much rather go sit somewhere with a mouse and keyboard.

That’s fine to only use the Steam Deck for games that were designed controller-first, but the point of the device and its major success has been to make any game, including non-controller games, playable in handheld form factor, and Valve’s touchpads have been the primary factor in that success.

This is the reason I see other devices that lack touchpads and can instantly dismiss them, as they aren’t really selling a product that is in the same category as the Steam Deck and therefore do not really compete with the Steam Deck. They are just selling a handheld console (despite the fact that they run Windows, made clear by how awkward and strange the interaction with the OS is), which is something that is not new and have existed since the late 80s. The Steam Deck is not a handheld console, it is a handheld PC. It is true that there are other examples of handheld PC devices, which are true competitors to Steam Deck, like GDP Win, but these attempts have not been nearly as successful.

Sliding my thumb that way while holding the thing I’m using causes excruciating pain almost immediately

Super bizarre and atypical. Probably a conversation you should have with your doctor.

I, along with pretty much anyone else that has used it, find they are surprisingly usable with thumbs, as they were designed to be. The left touchpad is especially useful as virtual menu and allows the device to be used effectively in many more games than is possible with other devices that are lacking these hardware features. Informational video and demo of touchpad virtual menu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vorhbmYIFpg

IMO Valve has the highest quality touchpads that I have ever interacted with on any product. They also pioneered haptic feedback, which makes their touchpads more usable than any other implementation that currently exists.

touchpads

What I am talking about is when layers are split across GPUs. I guess this is loading the full model into each GPU to parallelize layers and do batching

Models are computed sequentially (the output of each layer is the input into the next layer in the sequence) so more GPUs do not offer any kind of performance benefit